InWorldz

Where your Dreams are our Vision!

It is currently Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:30 am | All times are UTC - 6 hours
 Page 4 of 5 [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:59 pm
Posts: 904
Yichard wrote:
oh, and by the way, the huge memory leak of IW2 comes from firestorm... and they could never fix it. So it is very likely still in the latest versions of firestorm.
Why just I did crashed several times, lol

I've never had that problem with it, nor has Teal, and we've used it for ages. Do you have a JIRA number for the memory leak? Would be interesting to know what they found out?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:51 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 12:06 pm
Posts: 3379
Location: Netherlands
Wolf Hartnell wrote:
Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried Alchemy itself? I only wonder because that might help identify if it's an Alchemy thing or something done to adapt it for InWorldz Viewer 3. Could help narrow down the issue a bit.


Yes, I tested 4.0 Beta and later the official Alchemy 4.0 release.
Same issue also exsists in the Linden Viewer (last one used was the IMM release candidate)

I found the Font settings for Firestorm: DejaVu is the font used, however v3 does not show me where I can change the font to make sure it's the exact same.

I can't put my finger to it, but I suspect it's something with the fonts. The words are much harder to read, regardless of the colors used.

I seriously tried setting the viewer size to 1.5 so 50% larger. Even that did not help me out in the long run.

Simply put: I am happy that I can be on here with Firestorm and have a similar experience.
But this issue is an important one... I saw layra posted similar issues... this needs to be adressed.

I think the easiest would be starting with the same font as Firestorm. Then maybe look at the line spacing, these are all settings one can change in firestorm but not in Iw3. Good chance the differences are in that part.



_________________
Image
Mesh prefab builder with a preferences towards Gothic Architecture.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:08 am
Posts: 5759
Location: Wales
Wolf Hartnell wrote:
Yichard wrote:
oh, and by the way, the huge memory leak of IW2 comes from firestorm... and they could never fix it. So it is very likely still in the latest versions of firestorm.
Why just I did crashed several times, lol

I've never had that problem with it, nor has Teal, and we've used it for ages. Do you have a JIRA number for the memory leak? Would be interesting to know what they found out?

It's not there, or at least not the same as IW2's leak. I just logged on to IDI with IW3 and a draw-distance of 512. On IW2 I would be able to see the memory being eaten very quickly in my system monitor, until it was all gone and the computer needed a reboot. On IW3 it goes up to a fixed value (3.9 Gb) and then just stays at that.



_________________
Ark
Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 7936
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
LaryaBlackheart wrote:
and no one will convince me (ever) that certain (end-user functionality) changes were 'only' made because "they had to be changed...
Larya, that's actually pretty much the reason things appeared to change; in many cases they were actually changed by the Firestorm team, sometimes by what appeared to be personal preference, but it was all those divergences from the LL code that made updates so much more work. So when we scrapped the IW2/FS viewer, we lost the FS-specific code and that resulted in some divergences from the LL code reverting back to their "unchanged" ways (closer to the official SL viewer), but also meant it was easier to merge and avoid bugs like the memory usage problem below. If you were used to the FS changes, this looked like a pointless change for IW, but it was actually pulling the IW viewer back in line with the standard viewer code, undoing a FS-specific change, and reducing the number of code divergences from the "upstream" code. Similarly for "lost features"... the truth is they weren't intentionally removed; we needed to make a list of those and add them again. That is what the point of the 3.0.2. thread was, and Benski's list, etc. (Which is now getting estimates applied.)

We could have tried to track all those FS differences from the upstream LL code and tried to reapply those as new changes on top of that LL code, but the whole point of this exercise was to try to significantly reduce those differences, not preserve them. This was necessary in order to get an updated viewer out at all.
Yichard wrote:
oh, and by the way, the huge memory leak of IW2 comes from firestorm... and they could never fix it. So it is very likely still in the latest versions of firestorm.
That's one of the main reasons we abandoned Firestorm as the basis for the IW viewer. That problem got so bad that I took a couple stabs at a fix myself, but I found there were at least 3 separate problems, some of which were way beyond my ability as a (non-)viewer developer.

Judy, you may not have hit that bug (or noticed id) if your machine had lots of memory and you were using a 64-bit viewer, or just avoided regions where it was most common. The crashes depended on the content of the 25 neighbor regions and then running out of memory as a result.
Wolf Hartnell wrote:
I've never had that problem with it, nor has Teal, and we've used it for ages. Do you have a JIRA number for the memory leak? Would be interesting to know what they found out?
It's FIRE-9976 in the Firestorm JIRA:
http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9976

You may remember it as the "vertex buffer" crashes, but that was the victim symptom, not the culprit. The culprit was very large memory use. Part of that came from our move to increase the 3x3 neighbor regions (1 neighbor each side) to 5x5 (2 neighbors, 512m neighborhood) as that cause the texture downloader in the viewer to be in use a lot more and to queue up many many more texture download requests (which all took quite a bit of memory). So it was more memory usage than memory leak. As far as we could tell, only Firestorm and viewers derived from FS were affected. And the IW2 viewer had a much larger problem than FS itself (or at least it was easier to reproduce the problem with IW2 than with FS). It remains unresolved.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:25 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:08 am
Posts: 5759
Location: Wales
Arkady Arkright wrote:
It's not there, or at least not the same as IW2's leak. I just logged on to IDI with IW3 and a draw-distance of 512. On IW2 I would be able to see the memory being eaten very quickly in my system monitor, until it was all gone and the computer needed a reboot. On IW3 it goes up to a fixed value (3.9 Gb) and then just stays at that.

It's not on the latest FireStorm either - that goes up to 3.6 Gb and stays there.



_________________
Ark
Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:28 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:10 pm
Posts: 3989
Location: France
Jim Tarber wrote:
Wolf Hartnell wrote:
I've never had that problem with it, nor has Teal, and we've used it for ages. Do you have a JIRA number for the memory leak? Would be interesting to know what they found out?
It's FIRE-9976 in the Firestorm JIRA:
http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-9976

You may remember it as the "vertex buffer" crashes, but that was the victim symptom, not the culprit. The culprit was very large memory use. Part of that came from our move to increase the 3x3 neighbor regions (1 neighbor each side) to 5x5 (2 neighbors, 512m neighborhood) as that cause the texture downloader in the viewer to be in use a lot more and to queue up many many more texture download requests (which all took quite a bit of memory). So it was more memory usage than memory leak. As far as we could tell, only Firestorm and viewers derived from FS were affected. And the IW2 viewer had a much larger problem than FS itself (or at least it was easier to reproduce the problem with IW2 than with FS). It remains unresolved.


Wolf, the "fix" is also well known since the discussions on IW3 started, or even the discussions on IDI: avoid large drawing distances. Remember that a lot of people were complaining to crash in IDI, or in some places like Chanwood. This happens when the draw distance is large, but not when it is small. This is consistent with what Jim explains above, and if people alway keep a small draw distance they never crash.

Jim, remember that I ran a test too, and it clearly showed memory use increasing exponentially some times after I entered in IDI. This is also consistent with your explanation. What led me to speak of memory leak instead of memory use, was a large residue remaining after I left IDI to the sandbox, but this may be a different problem.



_________________
Elfs are in virtual worlds to share a vision of a wonderful life :-)
Elven bards and storytellers
"Elf Dream" for Elf living
"Shedrupling University" science
YichTrains Elven Works Lysaer Gortax Robots
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:53 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:58 am
Posts: 2192
Well -

When I downloaded my first TPV it was at least intuitive enough to be 'somewhat functional' - 'out of the box' .... and that's the point. I have to agree with Benski in that there is something inherently 'wrong' with the viewer that IW3 is based on (and therefore, logically, the IW 3 viewer itself).

I have 'always' -since my first log in on SL in 2010- found the Linden viewer frustrating, user-unfriendly, badly organized and a hindrance to immersion (which was presented to me as "the whole point of virtual worlds").

Having witnessed much of the (very public) commentary on the Linden viewer[s] by many 'average users' [since well before the Emerald viewer -er- "fiasco"], I'd have to say the popularity of TPV's in general and Emerald, Phoenix and, subsequently, Firestorm, in particular, have all been a result of people finding the Linden Labs' developed interfaces (and skins) "not functional in some way (or[i] ways) and going in search of, or building, alternatives so they could use the grid without the ripping out of so much hair, swearing loud enough to disturb the neighbors, etc,etc.

Generally the complaints I have heard are not 'just' in reference to the v3 viewer (...not organized sensibly, not user-intuitive.... ad nauseum ...[to put it nicely]). There may have been other reasons (shinys the Lindens wouldn't/couldn't/didn't include, etc,etc,etc) but in the order of important those, of course, must take a back seat to "making the viewer as functional and familiar to as many users as possible" ... Having given every viewer LL published, till 2012, "the old college try" (including several derivative viewers that actually attempted emulation of the originals), I can't give LL any better grade on their viewers than "Epic Fail"

All I can say is... If the original [Linden] viewer had not been set up so 'badly' (and, IMO, it has gotten worse with every successive viewer since v1) not so many people would have run, screaming, from the room in search of a TPV to begin with. - Rather than TPVs being overwhelmingly more popular than the viewer developed to work with the technology... TPV's would only be a very small niche group. ...and, really, shouldn't that be telling someone, somewhere, something very basic about their product?



_________________
~aka~ Claret LaKhabary @ Imzadi Basin, Arborea, InWorldz

The Almighty tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're sporked.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:18 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:58 am
Posts: 2192
oh.. just one more thing ... I want to assure anyone that might think otherwise ... I'm not metathesiophobic [not even a little bit].



_________________
~aka~ Claret LaKhabary @ Imzadi Basin, Arborea, InWorldz

The Almighty tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're sporked.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 7936
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
LaryaBlackheart wrote:
I have to agree with Benski in that there is something inherently 'wrong' with the viewer that IW3 is based on (and therefore, logically, the IW 3 viewer itself).
For what it's worth, I have to agree with that too. But that viewer is called Second Life and they really went off the rails after version 1.x. The problem though is that if the IW viewer strays too far from that SL codebase, it becomes a mostly unsupportable maintenance development headache.

Now the IW3 viewer has probably gone too far towards the SL viewer in its first major pass at it, which is why we had that whole 3.0.x thread to try to figure out where to pull back a bit and intentionally let it stray, in order to try to find a place where it's mostly the same code, but different where we really need it. That was off to a pretty good start but then got stalled. I think we're getting back on track again now, looking over the feedback, making a list, checking it twice, gonna try to deliver several updates in the second half of the year here. :geek:


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3 unusable for 'serious' virtual work
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:53 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:58 am
Posts: 2192
I know this probably sounds easier, in principle, than it likely is in practice (I don't code but I know folks that do, so it 'all' doesn't go completely over my head... just most of it) but, frankly, it's not so much the internal code-work (active systems); those are likely all resident (hopefully most of them are anyway).

just ... [using an absurd example, in a moment] Looking at this from the "seller's" point of view, the skin (with just enough variety in color, etc. to cater to the wider populace of the grid) is almost (ALMOST) as important as being functional in an intuitive way [and by "intuitive" I do mean "taking into consideration where most users would most likely look for a process" - where it can be found without stumbling over it by accident a week after you needed to find it, or making 'seasoned' VW users feel 'stupid' and/or 'lost' for having to ask where "they" put it - no matter what level of techy/geek they are... or aren't].

Not really telling you anything you don't know ... but, after all, who wants to buy a pair plain oxford shoes when saddle-shoes are so much prettier and "all the rage" - then again, you don't make them with candy-licorice-laces to tie them up. That would just defeat the intent of them to be a functional set of footwear).

... Taking that analogy one step further; many people wouldn't spend an extra fiver on the saddle shoes if they were much harder to wear than plain oxfords ... Anyway ... so, you buy the saddle-shoes and they're a great fit and they look awesome with that neat new poodle skirt and snowy white crinoline ... but, wtf? where are the laces?! I need to tie them up ... wait, why did "they" put them in the SOLE ....?



_________________
~aka~ Claret LaKhabary @ Imzadi Basin, Arborea, InWorldz

The Almighty tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're sporked.
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 4 of 5 [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Site Navigation