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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:28 pm 
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WonderWheeler wrote:
Maybe I am overreacting, but some folks have to take the long view if items are to be preserved for future generations. Hard to think of in virtual reality grids, that things might be preservered for more than 5 or 10 years. But that is my modest intent. To help protect the legacies of half crazy Creators. Once in a while, maybe not right now, a scribe needs to have the rights of a creator to preserve things.


Lay out all the stuff onto the ground and have one of The Founders save the sim into an oar file then load it back onto the sim. Loading an oar file onto a sim makes the sim owner the creator of all prims on it. Then you can set all the export flags you want.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:34 pm 
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WonderWheeler wrote:
The current situation sets up a kind of ratchet system. Such that each item, as it is passed down through each generation of user, can only have less permissions, never more permissions. That leads to a historical situation over time where entually an item will not be able to be passed on to the next generation.
First, there are only two ratchets. The first denies exporting from the grid, the second denies transferring to others. And on a commercial grid, with products being sold, it is important to have both options. Having the second allows copyable objects to be sold, or given away, while having the first actually allows creators to sell creator products to other creators. It also allows the case you're talking about: the ability to designate content as freely-exportable off-grid.

The export permission enables your particular goal (which is very different than most of the content creators in InWorldz), with a new(-ish) option to remove the creator-only export restriction.

But I don't understand in the specific cases you mentioned of preserving the content of other third-party creators: you did not originate that content. It originated from somewhere outside the grid. As far as I know, it's all still there, still available externally. It's up to that creator to preserve them or to encourage others to do so, from the source location. Are the copies you have in InWorldz now the only source for them? If so, then yes, they can't be exported by others, unless you mark them exportable by the others too. But you (or somebody) uploaded them to InWorldz from somewhere. If you want it to be possible for the copies brought into InWorldz to also be exportable from InWorldz, they'd need to be marked as exportable (given to others with the Export permission enabled). It is an option available to you, if you uploaded the content to InWorldz (are marked as the creator here).

WonderWheeler wrote:
Maybe I am overreacting, but some folks have to take the long view if items are to be preserved for future generations. Hard to think of in virtual reality grids, that things might be preservered for more than 5 or 10 years. But that is my modest intent. To help protect the legacies of half crazy Creators. Once in a while, maybe not right now, a scribe needs to have the rights of a creator to preserve things.
InWorldz servers will allow you to export the content you imported, regardless of this export permission. It is automatically enabled for the content you uploaded here, even your old content. But if you want others to be able to export it too, you'll need to turn on the Export permission for those items; that's the safety switch for commercial items in a grid that properly supports commercial creators too.


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:41 pm 
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Jim, Wonder is the curator, not the creator. The content is mostly in Arcadia's name. So only she can set them exportable.

Linda Kellie stuff is available on zaradoo but I am unaware of an offgrid location for Arcadia's stuff.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:46 pm 
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Benski wrote:
Jim, Wonder is the curator, not the creator. The content is mostly in Arcadia's name. So only she can set them exportable.
Ah, so you're saying Wonder was not the one who uploaded those earlier from an off-grid location? So the answer to my question of InWorldz being the original "source" copy is yes? That, I wasn't expecting and if so I understand the concern now.

Unfortunately that means Wonder could also not export the content before the Export permission either. The Export permission allows the creator to disable the creator-only export restriction; without it there was no support at all in the system for Wonder to export Arcadia's content. With the Export permission, at least there's an option to do so.

Wonder, if you feel you have a legal permission to use the content outside InWorldz, you could try exporting it with an older viewer that follows the older OpenSim semantics (where full-perm allows export).

However, this is actually off-topic now since Wonder's case is not related to the Export permission (which actually loosens the restrictions here).


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:28 am 
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just a quick note, since this is veering off topic:

What becomes of the creations of deceased people has been discussed several times in these forums, but Inworldz LLC never replied. We can assume anyway that Inworldz LLC is tied by legal requirements, like at least having a legal confirmation that the person is deceased, and what are his/her wills. So that today the only way is that a curator (family member, notary...) does the job, and for this knows our credentials. We can also entrust another person in world, but giving such a power can be dangerous.

For stuff accessible on the Internet, and with appropriate licensing, like Linda Kelly's, it is enough to import them and set them full perm. The only problem I see is that such stuff can still be misappropriated. We need some "watermarking" of stuff, which can survive import and export, but there is a long way to there.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:01 am 
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[quote="Jim Tarberwhile having the first actually allows creators to sell creator products to other creators.[/quote]

Well, true but so far every TOS on "full perm" anythings I have seen so far have said to the effect that you may NOT in any way transfer the object/texture/script/whatever to your hard drive and may NOT take it to another grid (unless you pay a LARGE extra fee) and may NOT put your name on it. Maybe there will be creators who allow that now but so far such actions have been denied by all TOSes I have read and creators threaten DMCA charges if done*. Keep in mind that X flag allows the exporter to do anything at all with the item. That's FINE but remember that.

It's good to have that option though.
---------------------------------
More comments about that "Full Perm thing that is not really 'Full' perm" concept on my upcoming blog as it's off topic here.

* Yeah, right. That works SO well for DVDs and computer software, doesn't it?



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:56 pm 
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WonderWheeler wrote:
People in the Arcadia Asylum Curators Group on Google Plus say Arcadia has not been heard from in almost a year.

Wonder Wheeler


Look here http://www.outworldz.com/cgi/freesculpts.plx

Starting around page 3 (http://www.outworldz.com/cgi/freesculpts.plx?count=198) about 3/4 of the way down I see some items that start with "Arcadia". They are IAR files though so you will have to load them into your own Open Sim, (easy to install on your computer) tell your viewer to ask the server for God Powers (Developer/Request Admin Status - Since it's your own server you will receive them), use the command line to load the IARs into your inventory, rez them into your own world there and export them out. Remember the server/sim owner (that's you) can do ANYTHING with the items on the grid. :)

I hope this helps.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:34 pm 
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LoganStargazer wrote:
Well, true but so far every TOS on "full perm" anythings I have seen so far have said to the effect that you may NOT in any way transfer the object/texture/script/whatever to your hard drive and may NOT take it to another grid (unless you pay a LARGE extra fee) and may NOT put your name on it. Maybe there will be creators who allow that now but so far such actions have been denied by all TOSes I have read and creators threaten DMCA charges if done*.
It's not something that is now possible -- my experience with this is not something new -- it's from when I first came to InWorldz 5 years ago and there were only 3250 users. I exported a lot of my content from SL with StoredInventory. But because that include textures and sculpts from SL creators, I knew I had to check with them to see if I had a license to use these items in InWorldz. I contacted 20 creators asking that specific question, or if they would extend the license to include InWorldz.

Of the 20, there were only two who didn't approve, and that was mostly because they didn't understand what InWorldz was at the time. 16 of the creators just agreed outright, and two of them said they'd open stores in InWorldz. So I'd have to pay again for the textures I used, which I didn't mind doing since it was a new world, and plus we could certainly use their product catalogs here! So in my sampling of the 20 creators I used, 80% agreed to allow my use in InWorldz, 10% moved here. And that was 5 years ago when InWorldz was mostly an unknown.

The DMCA process is not perfect but it does work fairly well here. It is better than not having it and protects the grid itself from legal claims due to the safe harbor provisions. There have been many violation claims in InWorldz and most result in immediate takedowns, because InWorldz must respect that law or face liability to the grid itself. In a couple of cases, there were some apparent false claims that the founders would then briefly discuss with the accuser, because filing a claim when you are not the copyright holder can be as serious as violating the copyright. But InWorldz must act without judgement within a fairly short reasonable time period if the accuser persists.


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:32 pm 
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Jim Tarber wrote:
LoganStargazer wrote:
Well, true but so far every TOS on "full perm" anythings I have seen so far have said to the effect that you may NOT in any way transfer the object/texture/script/whatever to your hard drive and may NOT take it to another grid (unless you pay a LARGE extra fee) and may NOT put your name on it. Maybe there will be creators who allow that now but so far such actions have been denied by all TOSes I have read and creators threaten DMCA charges if done*.
It's not something that is now possible -- my experience with this is not something new -- it's from when I first came to InWorldz 5 years ago


Well, You had suggested that FP creators would use the X perm to allow people to remove their names off their creations and even cross-grid the stuff. I was just trying to point out that so far all the FP creators expressly forbid exporting, cross-gridding and putting your name on their stuff.

The X flag is great but with the stuff already being C/M/T I doubt the FP creators will also allow X. The X allows you to strip off the creator's name and take all the stuff to another grid to make money or even do it here. Keep the X, yes, but add some kind of digital signature to objects with the original creator's name. That way of course the builder/buyer can put it under his/her own name to make things easier but stealing can be traced back.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:51 pm 
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LoganStargazer wrote:
Well, You had suggested that FP creators would use the X perm to allow people to remove their names off their creations and even cross-grid the stuff. I was just trying to point out that so far all the FP creators expressly forbid exporting, cross-gridding and putting your name on their stuff.
I was pointing out that the last sentence is completely false. Please stop saying it. That might be your experience but mine was 80/10 the other way. Certainly not "all" when only 10% of the creators in my case objected.

LoganStargazer wrote:
The X flag is great but with the stuff already being C/M/T I doubt the FP creators will also allow X.
In my case, 80% would have. In fact, many mesh creations are sold online as downloadable .DAE files and texture files for the secondary creator to upload and use.


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