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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 113
Location: Modesto, California
The only problem I see in the discussion of export permissions is something that affects me: The two main authors of public domain content, Arcadia Asylum and Linda Kelli, are no longer in VR worlds! Their work came before this new Export tag. That might make it difficult to set Creator Permissions. Library Curators like me, would like to be able to have items in our collection to be fully transerrable and exportable.

Linda Kelli items should be fully transferrable. Arcadia Asylum's only condition is that her items items cannot be sold. There might be some scripts on some of our items that require credit to their respective writers, such as Balpein Hammerer. How to set these permissions however is problematic. There are literally thousands of items in just the Arcadia catalog and IW Tech support is not going to want to get involved in that I assume.

People in the Arcadia Asylum Curators Group on Google Plus say Arcadia has not been heard from in almost a year.

Wonder Wheeler


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:02 pm 
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Jim Tarber wrote:
- The next-owner Export permission can only be changed if it the current owner Export permission is already set. If the current value is off, the next-owner Export should be forced off (and checkbox greyed out). Disabling next-owner Export and transferring it to another user effectively ends all exports of that item going forward. (Of course the original copy from before the transfer remains exportable.)


That's all very nice but once the object is exported and on a person's hard drive all bets are off. The file can be edited at will and anything can be done to it I would guess. Are exported OXP files going to be encoded so people can't mess with them?

Here is something to test. Benski, have your alt make something and set the Export flag. You export it and import it back in. Who shows as the creator of the imported object?

Jim, I just thought of something very obvious but won't mention it here in public so I don't give anybody ideas. If my evil thought works the Export flag is a very very BAD idea! See your PMs.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:31 am 
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
LoganStargazer wrote:
Jim Tarber wrote:
- The next-owner Export permission can only be changed if it the current owner Export permission is already set. If the current value is off, the next-owner Export should be forced off (and checkbox greyed out). Disabling next-owner Export and transferring it to another user effectively ends all exports of that item going forward. (Of course the original copy from before the transfer remains exportable.)
That's all very nice but once the object is exported and on a person's hard drive all bets are off. The file can be edited at will and anything can be done to it I would guess. Are exported OXP files going to be encoded so people can't mess with them?
I'm not sure if this has anything to do with what you quoted, which is the viewer user interface helping the user to understand the server semantics. (I've fixed this in the next update though.)

Exports are provided so that people can use them. That's why they only apply to full-perm items, or now, items given the Export permission.

LoganStargazer wrote:
Here is something to test. Benski, have your alt make something and set the Export flag. You export it and import it back in. Who shows as the creator of the imported object?
There's no need to test that; it would be the uploader. (It will change creators.) That is a feature of exportable items. The same as when you texture a prim with someone else's texture than then sell the object as your own. You show as the creator of the prim, even the one with someone else's textures. For example, many sculpt packs sold as full-perm creator packs are actually sold with example objects that are no-trans, so that you must apply the sculpt textures (optionally downloading them first) to prims of your own creation, so that the original creator does not show as the creator of the new object.

But I think you're missing a fundamental aspect of the Export perm: this is the entire point of the Export permission; to allow you to export the item (and import it as your own, elsewhere or on the same grid). The creator is specifically granting export by enabling the Export perm.


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:42 am 
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WonderWheeler wrote:
The only problem I see in the discussion of export permissions is something that affects me: The two main authors of public domain content, Arcadia Asylum and Linda Kelli, are no longer in VR worlds! Their work came before this new Export tag. That might make it difficult to set Creator Permissions. Library Curators like me, would like to be able to have items in our collection to be fully transerrable and exportable.
That would prevent them from being used on other grids if they weren't already available off-grid. Did Arcadia and Linda personally upload all of those creations to InWorldz? Do they currently show as the creator? If not, then their accounts don't really matter here. They may not even have accounts on InWorldz.

Content that is already available out-of-world does not need an export option. However, if you wanted to enable it for InWorldz copies too, the external item would need to be uploaded again.

There are really only two choices here: grid content is exportable by default, or it is not. What we've done in InWorldz (and this is different than other free-for-all grids) is a best of both worlds hybrid: regular content that existed prior to the Export permission does not have the option enabled, so that all existing content is protected by default. There needs to be some explicit instruction provided before InWorldz can tag an item as exportable by someone other than the (named) creator. However, if the user who currently is the creator in InWorldz wants to, they can enable the Export permission (without uploading it again). Also, all Library content is exportable, so that if you use any of that content in your creations, they can still be exported.

Although InWorldz has supported it for a very long time now, the Export permission is still a fairly new concept, because there hasn't really been much viewer support or usage as far as I know. It will probably need a few tweaks as it begins to be used more in practice. One of the first things we found was the Library content issue, so that was one of the early tweaks, to default that to exportable. There are probably a few more things to tune as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:44 am 
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Jim Tarber wrote:
It looks like IW3 shows the raw data better, and I can see there are at least two bugs there. The two bugs I've found are that:
- the server is returning the Export (X) permission enabled to the viewer more than it should be (it's enabled by default on Next Owner permissions), and
- the server is not enforcing that the X permission is off when that permissions mask isn't MCT. (e.g. you should never see MC-X, but MC-- or MCTX are examples of valid combinations.)
I have committed fixes for both of these issues in the next update. I'll hopefully have this running on the Sandbox regions for testing tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 113
Location: Modesto, California
I am not sure how plain a Creator can make their wishes, than "you can do anything you want to with this" or "you can do anything you want to with this, but you may not sell it for one Linden".

These two main creators did not intend their creations to be propriatary to particular grids. Granted, the items are available on most grids, but this means derivitive items will be stuck. Not a problem for you but it might be a problem for me.

By the way, there is still a body of work Arcada e was trying to get out of SL that hasn't been transferred yet. I have been trying to work on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:23 pm 
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Thanks Jim for reacting so fast, this imposed export was really worrying. :)
Well, was not really a problem, but better a false alarm before than eternal regrets after.



As a general reply to comments on this thread:
Assessing who can use a creation is a Yin/Yang dialectics between:
1) The need to share wealth and creation in a free economy where people help each other
2) The need to protect creators against exploitation, theft, appropriation of merrit, etc.
For this reason, in a final analysis, it is to the creator to decide who can use his work/creation, and how. In the instance of Inworldz, we builders then claim that it is to the creator to set his permissions or restrictions. If the work is integrated in another, the restrictions are cascaded to the other users (as Jim explains above). Export permission is especially important, as, once on the net, anything can be plundered, misappropriated, etc.


Second Life has a policy of hampering exports, in order to force its customers to stay. It is a breach in the 1) term above.

Open Sims and related softwares favour 1), which is nice. But they have a tendancy to force 1), which goes against 2).



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:38 am 
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WonderWheeler wrote:
I am not sure how plain a Creator can make their wishes, than "you can do anything you want to with this" or "you can do anything you want to with this, but you may not sell it for one Linden".


As I often denounced, the "Trans" perm unfortunately confuses two cases:
-items must be given
-items can be sold
This certainly was a big lack of foresight from the creators of Second Life. And difficult to correct, now. Unless to suppress this perm for new objects and replace it with give perm and sell perm.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:10 am 
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@ Wonder,

The main issue is that objects cannot see a license that goes with an item.

That is exactly why you, as currator, cannot set the Export permission on, you cannot set a higher permission than the original creator has set.

This is something, despite that it is inconvenient for you, should absolutely remain this way.

This is why:

- If you would have the option to check export permissions on Arcadia's stuff, as non-creator, then you could also set permissions to export on anything I made and gave you full perm but without export permissions.

Although we know that you are the currator, and we know you will not abuse that power, who says the next guy will be as honest?

If it's set for you to set that permissions on stuff you did not create, it is set to all.

As for the SL part...

Jim Tarber wrote:
...InWorldz is the only grid that has implemented it (and no, it's not implemented in SL either).


In order for you to be able to export it from SL grid, you need 2 things.
1. you need the original creator to set that permission
2. (and this is the hardest part) you need to convince Linden Lab to implement it.

2 is not likely going to happen.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:47 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 113
Location: Modesto, California
[quote="Benski"]@ Wonder,

..- If you would have the option to check export permissions on Arcadia's stuff, as non-creator, then you could also set permissions to export on anything I made and gave you full perm but without export permissions.

Although we know that you are the currator, and we know you will not abuse that power, who says the next guy will be as honest?

If it's set for you to set that permissions on stuff you did not create, it is set to [b]all[/b]. .[/quote]

Good points Benski. But, I as a curator, have to look at things with the eye of an (amature) historian. The current situation sets up a kind of ratchet system. Such that each item, as it is passed down through each generation of user, can only have less permissions, never more permissions. That leads to a historical situation over time where entually an item will not be able to be passed on to the next generation.

Remember monks or arab scholars that used to copy old roman texts over the Dark Ages. So much stuff was lost. Only recently, an advanced greek mathamatition's work (Arcamedies?) was found, almost invisible, in a rebound book of midevil prayers under the new lettering. Lost for well over a thousand years.

Maybe I am overreacting, but some folks have to take the long view if items are to be preserved for future generations. Hard to think of in virtual reality grids, that things might be preservered for more than 5 or 10 years. But that is my modest intent. To help protect the legacies of half crazy Creators. Once in a while, maybe not right now, a scribe needs to have the rights of a creator to preserve things.


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