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 Post subject: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:10 pm
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Location: France
I recently found that the latest IW3 viewer InWorldz3_3_0_2_37182_x86_64_Setup.exe offers a fourth permission "export". That is ok, but the problem is that we cannot uncheck it!!

This can be very harmful, as restricted items mat be exported against our will and plundered.

What I suppose is that server support is not yet implemented for this option, but I still want to be sure... or at least that this perm does not appear checked.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:14 am
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It is my understanding that the "export" permission is an extra option allowing other people's full perm items to be full TOS like the Linda Kelle stuff is (Do what you want with it) rather than limited full-perm (Mod it, Copy it, share it but you may not HAVE it. Keep it on this grid only).

Mod/Copy/Trans - viewer refuses to export.
Mod/Copy/Trans/Export viewer accepts the export function.
E is useless without M/C/T to go along with it.

This is my understanding of the "E" flag.
-------------------------------------------
I myself and looking forwards to this. I have spent YEARS telling my viewer "The creator told me I could cross-grid it and gave me a sworn document signed in blood. SHE TOLD ME IT'S OK!!!" but the viewer refuses to export the object. Now creators can tell the viewer it's OK (as long as M/C/T is also set).



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:38 am 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 12:06 pm
Posts: 3379
Location: Netherlands
I suspect this will not work yet, due to the lack of the serverside implementation.

I gave something full perm with this export option checked to my alt, but he was luckely not able to export it anyways.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:47 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:41 am
Posts: 2392
LoganStargazer wrote:
It is my understanding that the "export" permission is an extra option allowing other people's full perm items to be full TOS like the Linda Kelle stuff is (Do what you want with it) rather than limited full-perm (Mod it, Copy it, share it but you may not HAVE it. Keep it on this grid only).

Mod/Copy/Trans - viewer refuses to export.
Mod/Copy/Trans/Export viewer accepts the export function.
E is useless without M/C/T to go along with it.

This is my understanding of the "E" flag.
-------------------------------------------
I myself and looking forwards to this. I have spent YEARS telling my viewer "The creator told me I could cross-grid it and gave me a sworn document signed in blood. SHE TOLD ME IT'S OK!!!" but the viewer refuses to export the object. Now creators can tell the viewer it's OK (as long as M/C/T is also set).


And how on earth do we creators say it's NOT ok to export our builds to any other grid BY DEFAULT. At this moment, in ANY viewer, I see only 3 perms for any object (M-C-T). Where do we, or will we have to (if we have to) set the E on yes/no or simply ignore it if NO? In other terms will NO be the default unless we say different for a particular build of our choice?

I'm a bit lost. Don't want to find out the Viewer 3 will let people export by default if we don't say big no. Maybe I missed a discusion on this earlier?



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:10 am 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 12:06 pm
Posts: 3379
Location: Netherlands
Ehhhhh

Defaults in my viewer 3:

Attachment:
Permissions.png
Permissions.png [ 46.63 KiB | Viewed 4383 times ]


What part you cannot uncheck? It was unchecked by default and can check/uncheck at will.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:20 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:49 am
Posts: 621
As it stands, with no standards and a sort of wild west implementation, I don't trust the whole hypergrid thingie. Until there are verifiable security measures in place CX Design products will *never* be available on a hypergrid enabled grid.
Which brings me to the point, unless hypergrid is enabled "here" what the E permission does or does not do is largely a moot point.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:10 pm
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Location: France
In my case, Logan, the items were copy mod notrans.

Anyway I agree with Judy: we need to be free to set any of the perms (four now) without that the programmer tries to impose his way of thinking. Especially all perms must be set to no by default.

Example: it makes sense that a voucher is no copy(!) no modify no trans. Nobody has the right to impose us a permission under the pretext that the others are unchecked.

Example: it makes sense that I propose a full perm item to the Inworldz community (I started some), but I do not want this item to go in another world (where IP rights are not protected).

Ok this rather was a question for the devs anyway. I just wanted confirmation that Benski is right and the object cannot be exported because this perm is not implemented.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:14 am
Posts: 938
Yichard wrote:
In my case, Logan, the items were copy mod notrans.

Anyway I agree with Judy: we need to be free to set any of the perms (four now) without that the programmer tries to impose his way of thinking. Especially all perms must be set to no by default.


I'm sure there is a thing in the settings for setting the defaults on all new builds. Yes though; the out-of-the-box settings should default to safest arrangement.

@Judy:
Since this is a new perm setting I am guessing that old builds won't have it set to on. If you are worried about it just make sure of your check boxes when you make something new or set up your own defaults for new builds in the viewer settings.

The Devs aren't stupid. They will make sure things are safe when the server actually accepts this new flag. Right now it's just cosmetic.



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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:55 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:21 am
Posts: 582
The way the export bit is *supposed* to work when fully implemented was a bit contentious. Different viewers handled it in different ways.

What I would propose it does for InWorldz...

The default behavior is to disallow export even for full perm items unless you are the creator. This is similar to what SL does. It affords the maximum amount of protection to content creators while still allowing me to indicate something can be used.

If the export bit is enabled export is allowed. That may not extend to contents depending on what the permissions on those items are.

Now that's a change from existing behavior where anything full perm is essentially exportable. But it does offer maximum protection to a content creator. I may want to allow liberal use inside InWorldz but exporting to a new grid requires a separate license from me. If you can still export full perm items then I have no way to indicate that (and the export permission is essentially useless).

Would really be nice to have a "shareable" flag too. Full perm doesn't always mean you can share something even within the grid. There is a gap unfortunately between the permissions system and licensing. Probably hard to really fix that without a much more complex permissions mechanism. But export and more restrictive default behavior is start.

In a hypergrid environment export can can carry extra meaning. I might allow exporting to another grid with the permission following. So an object that's Copy could be sent to another grid but not exported from the viewer (essentially full perm). We don't have that case of course but its worth pointing out how export might work in that case.

This is just my opinion. I know some work was done a while ago to partially implement export. I'd love to see it finished. Especially if the semantics are as I described above.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Viewer 3: Export permission cannot be removed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:58 am
Posts: 2192
Tuppence.

I have faith that InWorldz has standard protections in place for permissions to be at least as comprehensive as they have in the past (and hopefully it will continue to improve as we go along, rather than "some day down the road" introducing a failure in certain areas that never existed before).

That said, virtual world technology is running forward (hopefully not without a crash helmet and elbow/knee pads). So, in the spirit of "weighing in" as a user and some-time creator. I'll just post my opinion on the concept of intellectual rights and creator permissions as a whole.

I absolutely agree that the default behavior should always be "all permissions disabled" (in all areas ... both viewer side and server side) with the ability of each user to modify any permissions they choose to meet their own comfort level.

In addition we also have to bear in mind that some users are still working/creating with viewers that are not "export permissions compatible (or capable)" <i.e. v1 and/or 2> ... meaning they cannot "manually" set their permissions as tightly (or loosely) as someone using a newer <v3 style> viewer. Just my opinion, but these users should still have the benefit of protection from "content or intellectual theft" at the same level as people using a more updated/current viewer.

I hope I said that in a way that makes sense.



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