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 Post subject: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:58 am
Posts: 2192
Maybe I am doing something wrong - I haven't seen this reported yet. If I am an explanation of how to correct the issue would be of great assistance. If I'm not doing something wrong the viewer needs a fix to allow the raw edit numbers to be manipulated correctly.

Symptom:

I downloaded the latest v3 viewer this morning. Using the default settings I selected a link-set with the intention of fine-tuning it to look right on my sky-box at 6000 meters. When I'm working on a project I have two ways of doing this. With small items or attachments I tend to use the rotator wheels to get the right "attitude" (xyz) and when I'm working on a large project (as in this instance) I fine tune "altitude and orientation" (also xyz) using the raw numbers in the edit window.

When I attempted to make a slight (.1m) correction from 5995.5 to 5995.4 to the height of the linkset - the entire selection disappeared from my camera view. On further investigation I found the linkset had moved to 4096 meters! Thinking I had potentially entered an incorrect value I moved into range and re-selected the object and tried to enter the correct height again but it wouldn't budge. [ETA: the only way to move the linkset to it's former position in the v3 viewer was to manually DRAG it almost 1200 meters - time consuming and inconvenient .. to say the least.]

update:

I have been informed that this is an on-going "limit" that was in-built by LL ... so ... could we "pretty please with sugar on it" have this corrected so that there is no need to move items 1200 meters or more "by hand" using the arrows and wheels? .. I don't consider this a "shiney" - it's a functionality item meant to work with "the InWorldz way".



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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
Posts: 526
Location: England
I am pretty sure i read somewhere there is a matis for this. Take a look through the long viewer 3 thread started by jim, i am sure the link is in there somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:49 am 
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Thanks, Manwa. I thought I was following that thread closely enough (a number of items that others have reported already are keeping me from a 'serious' look at shifting over permanently ... "yet" ... but I must have missed it). I'll look again!



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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:24 pm
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Location: Isla Draconia
AFAIK, InWorldz only officially supports building at elevations up to 4096 meters. Except when scripts are involved, this is enforced viewer-side rather than server-side. The reason behind the limit is because of fundamental problems with floating-point accuracy when you get to that height. Floating point numbers can only support so many digits accurately before tiny errors start creeping in, and the errors just get worse as elevation increases.



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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:07 pm
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Zauber Paracelsus wrote:
AFAIK, InWorldz only officially supports building at elevations up to 4096 meters. Except when scripts are involved, this is enforced viewer-side rather than server-side. The reason behind the limit is because of fundamental problems with floating-point accuracy when you get to that height.
This is accurate, except the 4096 and "support" is very fuzzy. InWorldz supports whatever the floating point values and viewer/server protocols support. (more below0
Zauber Paracelsus wrote:
Floating point numbers can only support so many digits accurately before tiny errors start creeping in, and the errors just get worse as elevation increases.
Exactly, and that starts at much lower elevations. Remember, we lose a digit at 1000m, although the floating point math isn't decimal-based, so it's not like you're "safe" at 950m and problematic at 1050m. You may see some limits on how many decimal places the viewer/server/protocol can maintain accuracy. There are a fixed number of "sweet spot" values that it will maintain many digits of accuracy for, however there are many others that will be shifted into one of the sweet spot values if you try to save them while at a higher elevation and then open it again and look.

You may have a better experience if you position and link multiple prims while at a lower elevation, then move the object higher. This is because, once linked, there are more places where relative offsets can be used instead of absolute ones, which lose precision with the elevation using so many digits.


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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:10 pm
Posts: 3989
Location: France
I think it is important to maintain the today limit of 10000m.

Simply because we are already accustomed to it.

Not to speak of the lot of stuff already existing at this height...

But also it offers a lot of freedom. In my Elf Dream project, the plan is to make a more free common platform at 2000m, and above free skyboxes. To come back at 4000 would be really Lindenesque.

Only problem I have noticed so far at 2000m is some switches operating erratically, versus the same at ground level operating reliably. However the explanation is probably complex.

The floating point rounding errors become visible much higher, for instance at 100kms (altitude where a character can teleport with his attachments). passed some thousands kms, we appear as a single point. So that the 10000m limit is still safe.



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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:14 pm 
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Yichard wrote:
I think it is important to maintain the today limit of 10000m.
The limit is 10000m. Please do not imply that this might be changing (it is not) as it will confuse users and lead to mythology.

It's just that the ability to build with accuracy decreases as you climb in altitude. This is the same in every grid.

In InWorldz, everything is supported up to that 10000m level (including physics), but you may not be happy with the results as a builder the higher you get from ground level.


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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:24 pm
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Location: Isla Draconia
Jim, the problem being reported is that the InWorldz viewer is observing the 4096m limit, and I recall being told by you in the past that 4096m is the limit that would be observed (at least in the script engine).

If that is not the case, then perhaps the InWorldz viewer has not yet been adjusted to observe the 10km limit, seeing as it was based on a viewer that was SL-focused up until recently?



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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:07 pm
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Zauber Paracelsus wrote:
Jim, the problem being reported is that the InWorldz viewer is observing the 4096m limit, and I recall being told by you in the past that 4096m is the limit that would be observed (at least in the script engine).

If that is not the case, then perhaps the InWorldz viewer has not yet been adjusted to observe the 10km limit, seeing as it was based on a viewer that was SL-focused up until recently?
The limit is 10000m. I don't really have any idea what you're referring to. (You don't remember the discussions about needed to support PhysX all the way to 10000m?)

Some viewers may have lower limits but they are viewer limits/assumptions and not an InWorldz limit.


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 Post subject: Re: VIEWER (v3) - FUNCTIONALITY REQUEST
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 7936
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Jim Tarber wrote:
Some viewers may have lower limits but they are viewer limits/assumptions and not an InWorldz limit.
I just tested it in IW2 and was able to move a prim to 4100, then 9000, then 9999, then drag it up to 10000 but not beyond that.

However, IW3 seems to have the 4096 limit. (We'll have to fix that to use the InWorldz limit.)

ETA: From a script, it's even less restricted. It seems llSetRegionPos doesn't enforce the 10000m limit (I stopped testing at 100,000m).


Last edited by Jim Tarber on Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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