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 Post subject: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm
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I am taking the topic from another thread and opening it as a specific line of discussion.

I think its fairly undisputed that LOTS of people who come to inworldz ask for mesh bodies. But does anyone ask why they want a mesh body rather than the standard Avi body?

The only time i asked i was given the following answer "its easy, you just buy a complete avatar, no messing around".

Mesh bodies can be made far more detailed than the standard avi. You can also turn the whole of the standard skin into one texture with space to add more detail.

However there is no easy way to apply alpha layers to a mesh body. So buying any kind of clothing becomes much harder. Essentially it has to fit without an alpha. Usually that means being specifically made to work with that exact shape.

If all people want is a ready to go all in one avatar they can right click and wear and there is an Inworldz skin maker and hair maker, ready to work in collaboration with each other, get in touch because it would be pretty easy to quickly turn out a number of different complete mesh looks.

If they want small changes such as just swapping out hands and feet that could be done with relative ease. Even things like making the nipples 3D rather than just a texture could be done pretty easily.

If however what people want is something much more realistic looking, with greater detail and greater texture depth thats a whole different ball game. Once you start making a custom mesh from scratch rather than just modifying the basic avi mesh a little you end up with a very different UV map. Once you have a different UV map your talking about people making custom skins to go specifically with that mesh body.

There are of course model generators which can make much more realistic looking mesh shapes. Make human and Daz Studio are just two of them. They could be rigged easily enough but then you hit possible issues in not being able to claim copy write infringements when using them.

Out of interest is it mainly the men or women asking? Personally i think its much harder to make a nice looking male avi using the basic shape sliders than it is female.

Anyway, i think the in's and outs of this are worth discussing, as well as possible collaborations between creators. I will hold my hand up now as someone willing to collaborate from the mesh body shapes and clothing side.


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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:45 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:26 pm
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As a photographer what I see is the high quality, hi-poly mesh body photographs much better. My partner and model Charlotte has used the Sapphira mesh avi for some shoots and there are fewer odd angles and seams when posing. Plus the selection of foot and hand poses allows for more evocative imaging. The downside is the absence of a mesh head because in very hi res (ultra with all advanced lighting options on, 16x anti-aliasing, large format hi pixel imaging) the lighting on the face is very different. It was explained to me that this is because the mesh on the existing head "reflects" light differently than the mesh on the body.


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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:34 am 
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Location: England
That's reason is pretty correct. It's the same reason foot and hand creators scream sometimes.

Under Purley global lighting it's possible to get an exact colour match where an attachment meets another.

Under local lighting it's not. The way shadows show under local lighting is different to how then show on an avid. This is caused because the aviation is casting a shadow over the attachment as a separate object.

If you upload a full avi as 3 separate parts without liking them into one object you will see the torso casting a dark shadow over the lower legs. It's a limit of the rendering in world.

Which is why the only really nice way to do it is to make complete avatars that include the head and other parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:03 pm 
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ManwaPastorelli wrote:
However there is no easy way to apply alpha layers to a mesh body.


Every mesh avatar I have ever seen has a HUD with many alpha mask stripes on it.

ManwaPastorelli wrote:
You can also turn the whole of the standard skin into one texture with space to add more detail.


Aren't UV map textures limited to 1024 x 1024? How do you squeeze the entire body plus more into that small a texture? I would think a top-quality mesh avatar (the kind that makes your eyes pop out) would require 1024 x 1024 for just the face alone.



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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:15 pm 
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LoganStargazer wrote:

Aren't UV map textures limited to 1024 x 1024? How do you squeeze the entire body plus more into that small a texture? I would think a top-quality mesh avatar (the kind that makes your eyes pop out) would require 1024 x 1024 for just the face alone.


I believe that even if you upload a texture at 1024 x 1024, when you apply it to a system part (skin, clothing layers, etc) it automatically resizes itself to 512 x 512. This may have changed since I learned, but back then I was told to always do this resize in my computer before upload, as SL (where I was at the time) does not do the resize quite as nicely as your graphics program would.

~edit, unless you were not talking about the 'system' skin, and only the 'skin' on the mesh body (but since you mentioned the face, and the bodies are headless, I took it to mean applying it to the system skin layer)



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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:30 pm 
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LoganStargazer wrote:

Aren't UV map textures limited to 1024 x 1024? How do you squeeze the entire body plus more into that small a texture? I would think a top-quality mesh avatar (the kind that makes your eyes pop out) would require 1024 x 1024 for just the face alone.


All skins on the standard system avi's and the system clothing layers are all reduced to 512 when baked onto the avi even if they are uploaded and added to the skin as 1024. All you do my making a skin with 1024's is increase the download time from the servers before your skins baked and uploaded back to the servers.

If you make the same avi from mesh, you can combine the head, body and legs uv's into 3 areas of the texture. This then leaves you room to add extra information such as eyes onto the same 1024 texture. Giving you the same pixel density as the standard avi's when seen and a smaller file size. Given that if you break one image of 1024 down into 4 512 images the 512's all together will take up more space than your 1024*1024 image.


LoganStargazer wrote:
Every mesh avatar I have ever seen has a HUD with many alpha mask stripes on it.


That makes sense, but from a creators point of view is still now where near as versatile as being able to make an alpha for the clothing your making.


LoganStargazer wrote:
Aren't UV map textures limited to 1024 x 1024? How do you squeeze the entire body plus more into that small a texture? I would think a top-quality mesh avatar (the kind that makes your eyes pop out) would require 1024 x 1024 for just the face alone.

This is one of the things which can and is done with mesh avi's and clothing that helps make them look much nicer than the standard avi's. Instead of all the textures being reduced to 512 in the baking process you can genuinely use 1024 textures.

if for example you have 3 *1024 textures making up a mesh avi (head, body, legs) you have 8 times the amount of texture detail you see on the standard avi, of course you also have 8 times the download cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:42 pm 
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ManwaPastorelli wrote:
This then leaves you room to add extra information such as eyes onto the same 1024 texture. Giving you the same pixel density as the standard avi's when seen and a smaller file size.


Yes, thats why I was surprised by your words and even more by what you have now said. The pixel density on most non mesh avatars is terrible. Have you even zoomed in close to one? They are all pixilated and nasty. Even the one I wear (the best I have ever *SEEN*) is all blurry up close. If that's 512 x 512 per body section then mesh avatars should have uv texture maps at least 1024 x 1024 per body section so you can see pores and eyelashes; not blurry patches.

Just my uneducated opinion. Keep in mind I am not a mesh expert and this is getting off topic. Sorry.



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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:58 am 
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ManwaPastorelli wrote:


LoganStargazer wrote:
Every mesh avatar I have ever seen has a HUD with many alpha mask stripes on it.


That makes sense, but from a creators point of view is still now where near as versatile as being able to make an alpha for the clothing your making.[/quote]

left Logan's just for reference but here I'll have to agree and disagree with you Manwa.

Agree: Yes, for clothes designers it is often easier to make alpha's specifically for their clothes. Problem is that either someone uses a mesh deformer (which I haven't yet in either across the pond or here) OR their body sliders just don't work always with the alpha mask. As a purchaser (versus a creator), this is hard. Especially for someone who does photography.

Disagree: On the HUDS across the street (didn't even know we had mesh bodies here)...those strips that Logan mentioned are incremental. Meaning that it's small strips that are alpha and by clicking each one, a person can get pretty much a perfect match up.

BUT...the catch to this is that many Clothing designers make clothes specifically for certain mesh bodies. They are still usable with the basic avatar mesh with their own created alpha's. They still also do different sizes as well (S, M, L, etc) So it's a challenge for creators to do clothes because (from what I understand) each one has to be altered slightly depending on if it's used for a pre-made body or the 'generic' body, etc.

Skins are all done by the HUD for heads and bodes by a click of the button. This is included a neck ring that joins the two together. So it is basically seamless from top to bottom and allows a consumer to have one body but use multiple heads from many different designers.

With that said...if I did not take pictures over yonder of my avatar, I probably wouldn't be too interested in mesh bodies. It's sometimes a pain to find skins for a particular one while others are in abundance of options. However.....there is absolutely no doubt that for anyone who is interested in pictures of Avatars...it's basically a requirement to run with a full Mesh Body and Head otherwise...you have to be even more careful with windlight options and often...you still need to do some heavy duty PS'ing to make those pictures equal to those with the Mesh Bodies.

One thing I have always wished is that a VW offered their own Mesh Body II (while keeping the traditional one to not break content). It's not difficult to run different heads, which would open the door for many types of head creations and skins--see above(many people will use their own traditional mesh body with an updated mesh head). Problem with that....well I'm not sure since I don't know what goes into creating bodies...would it still be adjustable? I don't know..the current Mesh Bodies on the market are adjustable to a degree but not to other degree's. Same as heads.


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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:09 pm 
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From a Male Customer point of view:

With the exception of specialty avatars like my cat, I would not ever choose for a Mesh body for my normal avatar for multiple reasons.

I do not want to rely on a select few creators making for that body specifically.

I hardly even have mesh clothing, for yet another limiting factor: most male clothing is "boy next door" look. Plane ol' shirt/jeans. Or suits... average, uninspiring and right out boring.

Simply due to that fact, the whole Resolution = better discussion is irrelevant if there simply is no choise at all... ow... and that includes what is available for SL.

With other words, currently it's right out impossible to get the exact look I want with any mesh avatar available anywhere

Mesh bodies are highly overrated in my oppinion.

And those that say we need it here to grow, are listening to folks making up excuses not to look outside SL because seriously... do an SL marketplace search... is it THAT great?

Logic says No it's not.



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 Post subject: Re: Mesh Bodies - Does Anyone ask why people want them
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:47 pm
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I am with Benski on this one. Although I realise that mesh avatars can be a lot more detailed but I do not want to be limited to a few creators making clothing, shoes etc for the avatar.

That would be just as annoying as real time when you find the perfect outfit only to find they don't do it in your size lol.



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